I suppose Apex is owned by Jo and Garry and yes, it looks nice in pics 3 inches high but I'll bet it doesn't even get one bid, £1300 for a '21r that doesn't run and (apparently) needs 2 new barrels as Apex have "previously machined too much" off the present ones? That'll put it well over £2k if the crank is OK. I don't know why but '21's fetch nothing right now. I'd rather have monkey's R with a couple of cracks in the fairing and a near new engine.
Whatever, Apex did a great job on my '28, 58bhp as I got it back from them then 61bhp with real strong midrange and flawless WOT from around 2500 just by going down one needle clip, not bad to say they never ran it to full revs and never rode it. _________________ Please do not PM me technical questions, if you can't find it on the Forum start a thread
id take it, for spares!!!!! but not for that cash. LOL but your right the engines guff, or we have to assume that, there was a rasce bike on ebay a few weeks ago, with 2 sp engines that needed similar work to this but without the barrels being stuffed , and a few spares and it went for £800 i think.
he also had raod going body kit, HRC carbs, CANS, etc etc etc and other items in a seperate auction, all of it went for around total of 1300 now that was a good deal....but i had no cash
I got the servo ... JUST in case mine ever goes, only a tenner.
For those that are interested.....as always there are two sides to every story.....and you need to be aware of the history regarding the engine if you want to bid.
As far as I can tell from the ad, given that all I have to go on is the name of Steve, a phone number and the location, this bike was owned by someone who works for a very, very well known Honda dealer in the south of England.
He sent a pair of cylinders to us for a basic replate having only just bought bike and had it seize on him almost immediately in October last year. When the cylinders arrived they showed clear signs by the serial number stamps on them of having already being replated FIVE times. This was, and still is, a record in terms of the cylinders we have ever seen.
Several of the serial numbers were recognised as being done by a well known firm we refuse to deal because of quality control issues around the fact that they have been known to machine large amounts off the deck height when the cylinders are skimmed. Sure enough, when we checked the deck height the worst cylinder had a MASSIVE 1.5mm skimmed off it from standard due to the number of times it had already been replated by them. I can't remember what the other cylinder was, but I do remember them being different.
All of this was relayed to the customer BEFORE any work was done. He was strongly advised not have the worst cylinder replated again and to either buy a new one, or find a used cylinder that had not previously been replated to such an extent.
The customer ignored our advice and requested that we proceed with the replate on both cylinders. No tuning or machining was done by us to cylinders at all as he claims in the auction description, it was just a straight replate on both cylinders.
After returning the cylinders to the customer nothing further was heard until a month or so later when he called up to say that it had been rebuilt by a "well known two-stroke specialist" whose name I can't remember now, but we'd never heard of them and that it had then seized again almost immediately. The shop were claiming it was something we must have done wrong when the cylinders were replated and it was nothing to do with their rebuild, although at this point they hadn't actually stripped the bike down I don't think.
We asked that the cylinders be returned to us for examination so that we could see if there was indeed a problem with the replate that had been done. When we got the cylinders back there were no signs of any problems with the replating process itself and this was relayed back to the customer.
A number of conversations then occurred with the customer telling us what the shop were telling him (i.e it was our fault) and us relaying an answer back to the shop through the customer. It then ended up with the shop who had done the rebuild calling us and the guy there getting extremely irate on the phone claiming we had done the work wrong and made the bike seize. He claimed to have told the customer that cylinders couldn't even been replated to start with (so much for them being a two-stroke specialist as he told me he didn't know it was possible to replate cylinders) and therefore we had caused the seizeure and should pick up the bill.
I explained to him what the history on the cylinders was and that the customer had been advised not to use them, but had requested us to do the work anyway. The customer had neglected to tell any of this to the shop.
He then told me that when they had initially tried to rebuild the engine they had actually noticed that the piston crowns were hitting the cylinder heads. He said it was worse on one cylinder, but that they didn't know why. Not knowing anything about NSR's and not thinking to investigate any further they had just decided to work round this by using THREE BASE GASKETS on each cylinder to raise the deck height and allow enough room.
Unfortunately the shop obviously didn't realise why this was happening, nor did they know what the correct original deck height should have been and by only using three gaskets all they had done was increase the deck height back to standard.
Obviously when you rebuild an engine the deck height is standard plus one gasket, so the shop should actually have used four gaskets to get the correct deck height and compression back to Honda's specifications (as an aside we would never recommend running more than one gasket).
The shop, whilst not happy, did eventually accept our explanation that the equivalent of four base gaskets would have been needed to obtain the correct deck height and therefore compression. It was left that they would sort out the issues with the customer after accepting that we had told him of the potential for problems if the cylinders were re-used, but that he had not informed the shop of any of this prior to them doing the rebuild.
The cylinders were subsequently returned to the customer as he did not want them replated and he said he was going to buy new cylinders through his work. That was nearly a year ago now so I guess the bike has sat in its present state since the start of this year.
I hope you dont think i was having a pop.... I havent heard any bad news about APL only good!! thats why i posted this i thougt it was strange. Glad you chipped in thou. I guess your right and the bike hasnt moved since the last siezure.
rc46.... nope didn't think you were having a go at all.
Given that someone on here may want to bid I would have happily told our side of the story and the facts/history of the bike as we know it anyway. As far as we are concerned the bike needs at least one new, or at least used replacement cylinder, maybe two if you wanted to play safe. Given how long it has now stood for I would also want to verify the state of the crank in case it has dried out as well.
That means any new owner needs to be looking at rather more work/expense to get it going than just simply getting the cylinders replated again as the seller is suggesting.
The sellers view that the bike was "perfect until it let go" is, lets face it, a little short of the truth given one cylinder showed clear signs of five replates before it seized on him and the other I think had been done either two or three times. Obviously the bike has a history of problems which he inherited from the previous owner, but to say it was "perfect" until he asked us to replate the cylinders is well short of the mark. If it was "perfect" then he wouldn't need a replate as it wouldn't have seized on him to start with.
Anyone who might be interested in the bike can obviously easily verify all this for themselves just by taking a look at the cylinders for all the serial numbers stamped on them when they have previously been replated.
Anyone interested in it I have a cylinder or two for sale. _________________ MC28 SE -sold-
MC21 with RS250 engine -for sale-
MC21 race bike -soon for sale-
I didn't realise there was a maximum number of replates. Surely the company grind / hone off the old plating and apply the new each time?
You've got me worried now, as I am about to send my top cylinder away for it's second plate since I've owned the bike... _________________ MC21SP Plaything
BMW F800GS Bumblebee
Triumph 9551 Daytona Big boys toy
FJ1100 Sporting relic
GTS1000 oddball
There are two different issues here Dave causing a little confusion I think.
The internal nicasil plating on the cylinder bore is removed using a special process involving acid dipping. So, in theory, I guess this could be done an infinite number of times, assuming the cylinder bore is kept within the required tolerances, and it shouldn't be an issue for you to worry about.
The problem with these cylinders was that they had previously been replated multiple times by a well known company who we no longer deal with. This is due to quality control issues relating to the fact that when they prepare the cylinders they skim grind the top of the cylinder. In doing this the deck height of the cylinder is therefore slightly reduced every time they replate a cylinder.
If the cylinder has only been replated a couple of times, even by this company, this generally isn't an issue. However the more times a cylinder is replated by them obviously the smaller it gets because each time the deck height is reduced slightly. Therefore there comes a point in time when the deck height is reduced to such a point that the compression and squish will be affected. This increases the likelihood of a seizure if the height is not returned back to standard by the use of a thicker than standard base gasket.
As I have already stated this is not something we would generally advise doing. Therefore cylinders done multiple times by this company reach a point where they are in effect scrap as they cannot be used because of the reduced deck height.
We are therefore very careful to always check cylinders that come in for replating with serial numbers from this company on them and to check the deck height before doing any work. This was done with these cylinders and one was found to already be 1.5mm smaller than standard because of the number of replates that had been done on it by this company. It was therefore advised that the cylinder should not be replated a further time.
Just so you know we have also seen cylinders from this company where the bores have been too tight and/or they have not been round, so problems with their services are not just limited to deck height issues.
By the way I notice the seller has amended the description slightly on the auction now.
The question on all our minds then, is who is this company? I'd hate to be about to send my barrel away to them.
Perhaps a county location will be sufficient to ease my worries! _________________ MC21SP Plaything
BMW F800GS Bumblebee
Triumph 9551 Daytona Big boys toy
FJ1100 Sporting relic
GTS1000 oddball
In fact its been withdrawn, Maybe seen a few things going on here.. Shame i would have thought about it if the price was alot lower, Got some barrels from TYGA and a pair of heads and Ta da a nice little MC21.
Daves right if we can get a hint of who is doing this nasty work it would be good to feed that back into the forum and make sure none of us let our pride and joys suffer the same fate!!
By the way shaving 1.5mm will also alter the transfer ports as well, making the bike perform diffrently. Wont it !!!
Not sure about the transfer ports, but once the piston has smacked into the head, the bike will most definitely perform differently! _________________ MC21SP Plaything
BMW F800GS Bumblebee
Triumph 9551 Daytona Big boys toy
FJ1100 Sporting relic
GTS1000 oddball
It's very difficult to name names unless you've personally had problems that you wish to share with others. If I used a company (directly) that screwed something up, I would have no problem publishing the information, once I was satisfied all avenues of rectification had been followed - it's what the Site is here for.
In business it's even worse though, as there are likely to be huge complications with one business slating another.
Unfortunately the information is most likely going to have to come from a private individual who has experienced similar problems.
As you can see from the thread, the seller on eBay hinted that the fault laid with Apex, but Jo has explained the issues and the fact that it wasn't Apex to blame at all. If Apex were to name the company that they believed were at fault, and it turned out that company used a third-party platers, things would get rather messy rather rapidly!
I think if you were to e-mail or PM Apex I still doubt they will dissuade you from using the company, but rather ask you to consider sending the barrel(s) to them and they will forward them to their preferred company. Obviously this doesn't help the enthusiast who likes to go direct to source, but I don't think Jo would want to risk disclosing the information, it doesn't make good business sense.
At the end of the day, going direct to source is always going to be cheaper, but you then have to deal with any consequences that arise from it. Using a company such as Apex or Terry Shepherd will cost more, but you will have their experiences to rely on. _________________ Andy.
NSR-WORLD.COM
Please keep all responses to Forum posts on the Forum so that others may benefit.
Please DO NOT PM me for technical advice. My time is precious, and you will probably receive a faster response on the Forum anyway.
By the way shaving 1.5mm will also alter the transfer ports as well, making the bike perform diffrently. Wont it !!!
This depends on where the 1.5mm is removed from. If it's taken off the top, and thicker base gaslets used to make up for it, then yes, this will in turn basically move the ports up on the piston, altering their timing.
Now if the 1.5mm is removed from the bottom, and thicker base gaslets used to make up for it, then the ports are for the most part in the same place.
Of course Jo (I think) mentioned the material is skimmed off the top of the barrel, so yes, this would adjust the ports location.
Now there is an option for this to get some VHM heads with some blank inserts, and have new heads cut to allow for the skimmed barrels. Of course I would rather have the deck height be standard without needing to do any of this.
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