Hello fellow nsr riders Im after a bit of info on the pgm.

does anybody have any idea were I could obtain the timing specifications for an NSR MC21 ie how many degrees before TDC it should fire at certain rpm

Also required is the rpm that the power valve servo fully closes and opens

Im looking at the technical diffulculties of designing the pgm from scratch for my 4th year BE project, to be completed by the end of 2010

Are there any electronic engineers or hobbiests who have attempted this before?

People can email me info at pgm3design@gmail.com
thanks in advance for any useful information

I've had thoughts on how to gather this data and interpolate engine timing, but haven't had the time to progress my thoughts.

This may, or may not help.

MC21 HRC ign timing #1/2 cylinder 23deg @ 6,000rpm
#1/2 cylinder 14.5deg @ 10,000rpm

NF5 HRC ign timing #1/2 cylinder 23.5deg @ 6,000rpm
#1/2 cylinder 15.5deg @ 10,000rpm
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If I have to take the carbs off once more...

Hi stephen

what is your timing in relation too
you have the angle decreasing as rpm increases so I assume this is not degrees before TDC

something that may help your research.

A guy called borut, had designed, built and sells programme able ignitions and povervalve controllers for two strokes for a few years, there manufactured under the name zeeltronics and have allowed big power gains to be made on a number of two strokes, rgv's and rd350 to name a couple.

Have a look at his gear, He dosnt do anything for the NSR, not sure why but have a look, might help with what your exploring http://www.zeeltronic.com

ricey3 wrote:
...manufactured under the name zeeltronics and have allowed big power gains to be made on a number of two strokes, rgv's and rd350 to name a couple.

Or maybe not!

I've seen an extremely disgruntled, normally very happy chappy, with an RGV that showed "negative gains" with one of those expensive performance boxes!
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Andy.
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ricey3 wrote:Have a look at his gear, He dosnt do anything for the NSR, not sure why but have a look, might help with what your exploring http://www.zeeltronic.com

lol because the NSR is perfect, well except the MC28 that is.
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If I have to take the carbs off once more...

just from the experiance i've had people have had good gains with them, cant see how it would be worse than stock as a minimum you could put the stock curve on and it would be the same, unless it was not set up properly. I've seen a few of the rd chaps with them on and boy does it change them.

I know the honda is a good one but i bet the system would allow for changes that the std pgm cant cope with, you could also mirror the settings of a HRC pgm for less money!. I imgaine the main reason for him not doing anything is just pure demand

Well I wish you the best of luck. Anyone who can make new PGM units will be worth knowing, as once they've gone pop there's almost nothing can be done to repair them.

If that someone could also make something to enable MC28's to run the standard card but with the advanced timing of the 'race' card would be worshipped. Probably.
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MC21SP Plaything
BMW F800GS Bumblebee
Triumph 9551 Daytona Big boys toy
FJ1100 Sporting relic
GTS1000 oddball

ricey3 wrote:I know the honda is a good one but i bet the system would allow for changes that the std pgm cant cope with, you could also mirror the settings of a HRC pgm for less money!. I imgaine the main reason for him not doing anything is just pure demand

The Zeeltronic system has no TPS input so can't do 3d maps, it can only do % advance at x revs.

The PV system is a similar stepable % open at x revs setup.

Togeather they can't do everything a stock mc18 PGM-II can and the loss of the PGM would also mean the loss of the air solenoids.

The thing to remember is Honda threw millions of yen and top engineers at developing these bikes and HRC probably spent just as much developing the NF5 and F3 race bikes.
You're going to struggle to come anywhere near what either of them managed, so many things just don't work out as you'd think. The stock PGM is just about perfect on anything less than a full on race engine (as I found, both F3 and RS PGM-II's made less power than a stock PGM-II on my fairly stock motor,) and you'd call me a liar if I told you what revs the RC valve fully opened at.
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i wouldn't call you a liar mate.

I'm pretty sure the Zeeltronics stuff does accept a tps input and does 3D maps, as i was going to buy one for my VJ21 an wondered if it would be worth it as it was an early K model without a TPS.

Yeah all the factories would of invested a few quid in setting them up, no doubt about it, and the Honda one is very good, no doubt. I'm not arguing with that at all.

Just maybe it could be improved upon for certain situations, how much would it cost me for a HRC PGM?

ricey3 wrote:
...how much would it cost me for a HRC PGM?

About £450 and 4~5hp!

Unless it's used on a full motor, as Fontyyy says, it's more likely to perform worse with an HRC PGM than it will with a stock one.

As he's found out, and others would no doubt too if they had Steve's resources (i.e. their own dyno and the ability to use it properly!), blindly throwing HRC (or Sugo or Sugaya) parts on a bike is in no way the answer.

I'm not sure if they do, but I would expect both Yamaha and Suzuki have an equivalent book to the non-F3 SS/SP HRC books, that if followed correctly will produce a bike/motor that's extrememly difficult to make much better, even with "modern" parts. I think Dave Cooper did the RGV's some favours with his heads and valves, but I bet that in reality a bike with his stuff is really just more reliable (and possibly has a bit more performance) than one built from the Suzuki book because of modern materials and manufacturing processes more than anything else. I bet a £300 ECU doesn't do that much for them!

I can see a modern ignition like the Zeeltronic benefitting an RD system that was designed and manufactured in the 70's, but not for a bike that already has a digital ECU. The first NF5 and F3 setups used an analogue system, but it was replaced with a digital PGM later, and Steve's verified the gains on the dyno. Maybe the ignition map for the Mk1 RGV is actually a bit crap, I don't honestly know (and I doubt it is), but I bet the VJ22 is pretty much exactly where Suzuki needed it to be. We certainly saw a good RGV go very backwards with Zeeltronic parts, and it wasn't for lack of trying!

We might take the piss (a lot!), but regardless of the make or model, Steve is never going to want a bike to leave his place without getting the most out of it... just as long as none of them perform as well as the NSR! (Which they never will! )
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Andy.
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Well summed up!

My MC21 Track Bike has been modded fairly close to HRC SS/SP full set-up.
May be interesting to see what difference the HRC PGM is giving, compared to a standard PGM-III. Back to back Dyno run would be the order of the day. Heck, I hope its a fair few more ponies than my derestricted 21SP (otherwise OE), given all the cash i've spent with OK!Shon

Andy / Steve - don't need to hear again how 'cheap' you used to get F3 / HRC SS/SP parts for a few years ago
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Rich
MC21 Track Bike / RS250 NF5 'Spencer', NX5 'Cadalora' & NXA 'Aoyama' / RS500 / Two Brothers Racing RC30

No chance of getting down next weekend then Rich?
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Andy.
NSR-WORLD.COM

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No chance Andy, unfortunately

Get back from Saudi on Fri, North Wales on Sat with my Dad to pick up some overdue parts for the Honda 4 project. Then pack my bags on Sun for the Le Mans trip, leaving early Mon morn.

Another time? Dyno / Track Day in Sept would be great to shoot for, from my perspective anyway. Appreciate how hard it is to 'land' on a date that suits everyone.

Never give up hope
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Rich
MC21 Track Bike / RS250 NF5 'Spencer', NX5 'Cadalora' & NXA 'Aoyama' / RS500 / Two Brothers Racing RC30